RE: Dear Community, Let Your Voice Be Heard | Top 20 Witness Communication

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RE: Dear Community, Let Your Voice Be Heard | Top 20 Witness Communication

improv in #community • 6 years ago

I'd be happy to elaborate.

When I said the EIP makes it worse, I mean the incentive to have these conversations will be even lower, as comments rarely receive 16 steem upvotes, so even if your every comment is read and appreciated by the writer you're communicating with, the new curve will reduce the value of their appreciation, which is enough of a feel bad that I'd expect no one to really vote for comments, which is a pity.

The goal of the EIP may not explicitly state that it intends to de-clutter the chain, but that rewards curve is meant to force accounts to group their behavior together. Which means small positive contributions will receive even less, which means no one looking to maximize their return will engage in one-on-one conversations on-chain. It also means outliers, people who don't follow or lead the pack, will give less value proportionate to their SP. It'd be nice to avoid a system that discourages outside-the-box thinking. Ah, well.

And also, that curve IS meant to de-clutter the chain. I mean, it's talked about as keeping them from taking rewards, but the effect is the same. And for a new user, or even an old user, this concept of fighting spam is hard to disconnect from the idea that my $0 comments are the spam they're talking about.

6 years ago in #community by improv

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bil.prag 6 years ago

that was the first thing i was moaning about when i read about the changes. not be able to vote for people that follow my content and engage.

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improv 6 years ago (edited)

Keep moaning! I feel like they're using a broad range of herbicide to kill the pesky weeds without realizing they'll also kill the daisies. Or they realize and they don't care about daisies. Or they realize, but think the pigweed is a big enough problem that the daisies are acceptable collateral damage. Regardless, I'm yelling, "I care about daisies! Don't kill the daisies! Daisies are my favorite! I think a lot of people love daisies!"

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bil.prag 6 years ago

i did for a while, commented, made posts, and all i got is 2-3 responses that voting will change, small accounts will get more because no autovotes and bot votes and downvotes of those autovotes, and bigger steem price, that i am stupid for not seeing that, and that was it. so now i just want them to do it as soon as possible so we can move on.
i never cared about ROI on my votes, voted what i feel i should and when i get to it, so maybe after it i will only vote 100% on comments just to skip dust vote on them. (if even that will be possible)

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improv 6 years ago

Well the people pretending to know all the positive impacts of this change are either delusional or lying. I don't pretend to be sure, but I am sure that it's not a magic bullet, and I'm furthermore sure they can't know. There's no way to test it, I keep being told, so I don't know where they get their confidence from. This isn't physics, it's frontier economics. Behavior is hard to predict.

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justineh 6 years ago

Dust vote will be affected, I think many have discussed this. I believe there is a discussion being had about lowering the dust vote so the impact would not be so great. But again, I’ve not seen anyone discuss this on chain.. so I guess it’s back to the point of this post... tell them what you want to see.

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bil.prag 6 years ago

i seen it but i did not get what they plan to do with it. the dust vote is more as a joke, because with this prices even now it is hard to go over it. curve change will eliminate voting on comments for people that don't have over 5000 - 10000SP even if they don't care about ROI.

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justineh 6 years ago

It won’t really eliminate voting on comments, it just means it will take more of a consensus (or more people) voting on a comment to push it over the dust range. And as I said, if the dust is lowered than it will not take an account over 4K SP to do so on their own.

If the dust is to be lowered, then this will help the issue you are discussing. I’ve not seen anything official about it though, so again... witness communications.

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improv 6 years ago

Even if it doesn't go below the dust range, the value would still be reduced significantly (I think?... This is something I need answered. How severe is the low end of the curve? If I'm the only voter on a comment at $0.05, will that, in post-EIP, be $0.04 or $0.001?)

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justineh 6 years ago

You keep saying this will stop comments, but are you implying that the only reason people interact through comments on this chain is for upvotes? As my comments are very rarely upvoted and I still do so quite often.

I’m just trying to figure out where you are coming from as $0 comments have nothing to do with the curve and it’s not designed to prevent them.

So are you looking for another way to “like” comments without wasting your VP? (As you mentioned somewhere here). Are you worried about how it affects the dust vote? Or are you concerned with how the curve will initially decrease rewards on low rewarded posts? Or none of the above?

The only people who may stop commenting are those who are doing spam comments only to self upvote it and farm rewards... other than that I’m very confused how you feel these changes will stop comments.

Your, mine and everyone else’s $0 comments are NOT the spam anyone is talking about.

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improv 6 years ago (edited)

This one: Or are you concerned with how the curve will initially decrease rewards on low rewarded posts?

Here is one use case that the new curve renders less functional, but there are many more:
I run Punday Monday every week. People write puns on a given topic, and I reward the successful puns with my vote. It's a tiny bit of positive on the chain, that takes a tiny bit of effort, and that is rewarded with a tiny bit of money.

Will they all stop now? I dunno. I think they enjoy it enough and have learned how to do it, so they might keep going. But I also think they started because of the promise of a little change in their pockets. That's the promise of Steem.

So, my understanding of the purpose of the platform is: it's a social media platform and a blogging platform where user likes have financial rewards. Maybe it is other things, too, but that seems integral to the premise.

The whole point of this change is to change behavior, so I'm not sure why you don't think the rewards curve change might even impact desirable commenting behavior.

The "where user likes have financial rewards" part is currently true! Yippee! My largest concern for EIP, is that the plan forgets or ignores the needs of the average user, who isn't trying to maximize returns, but who is rather trying to use the platform as advertised.

Editing to add: nowhere did I say that EIP will "stop comments". I didn't keep saying it. I didn't even say it once. I just want to include this addendum because I'm not sure why you say I said that. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here. I think EIP will have a net negative impact on regular, human, positive behavior, including comments, but I don't think it will stop comments entirely. I don't even think it will destroy Steem. It'll just make it incrementally harder to be a new or poor user.

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bil.prag 6 years ago

for example most of my posts (be it photography, sports, steem...) have 2-3 comments, and a lot of the times one of them is steem ua bot. now to show that i appreciate the effort i do upvote comments as to give my 2 cents back.
now with new curve my 2700SP vote that is now around 35 cents (when WP at 100%), will be even lower. so voting on comments, and also voting on people that don't get votes will not only get no ROI, it will just be useless for me and for the that one that i voted for.

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justineh 6 years ago (edited)

Yes, so you are referring to the dust vote and how it will be affected (increased) after the change. Rewarding comments for small amounts and going over the dust will be harder to achieve on your own. That would mean someone else has to also upvote the same comment to push it over the dust.

What I’m trying to say is there is a discussion to lower the dust so this isn’t an issue.

Of course with falling prices votes are worth less, and that’s just how this works. Focusing on what will increase the price should be everyone’s focus, and part of that is making this place appealing to investors.. which I believe is the goal in these changes.

I’ll ask around more about the decrease in dust threshold after the HF and see if I can get more information.

The point I was trying to make above though, is whether a comment is voted or not has nothing to do with if a comment can be made.

So if we can’t reward comments, maybe we could just comment back, engage and have a conversation. I also think emojis would be great but I guess we aren’t there yet

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bil.prag 6 years ago

non of my comments were ever written with upvote in mind, i am just saying it is a nice option to give something back to people that engage on your posts (with new curve that will be impossible)
another example why a lot will suffer in the new system. i am week for week in 200 best curators on photography tag. if i am in best curators, you can imagine how much is distributed to the tag.
now why would i in the new system (i had no reason in the old one eather), vote for small acc that has few votes and now even penalised by the curve, so i get less and that small acc get less.

as i said, my mentioning of dust vote is more of a joke for a comparison of power of my vote and what i expect after the changes.

and as i said many times and not listening to myself, now i just want it to be implemented and we get over with it. maybe witnesses could tell us how the testing is going, and when should we expect HF. because november is near and steemit said that until steemfest we will have communities or SMT's (forgot which one was it). and i am kinda sure we will not have two HF in 3 months.

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justineh 6 years ago

Yes I understand that you want to reward those who comment on your posts and if the dust is increased, then most likely you won’t be able to do so - I have the same concern.

If the dust threshold is decreased though, this may not be something we have to worry about, we will have to see.

As far as date, I believe they are shooting for mid August. Currently they are all focused on testing to ensure the fork goes smoothly.

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improv 6 years ago (edited)

Hey there!
I don't think they're talking about dust. They're talking about the rewards curve. The new rewards curve means that posts that have rshares of upvotes significantly below about 16 Steem, will be worth even less than they would be in our current linear curve environment. OP, @bil.prag, can you confirm?

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justineh 6 years ago

He repeatedly said the comments people make on his posts, and wanting to reward them. Which would mean the dust vote threshold, as in that situation he may be the only person voting these comments.

Yes the curve is another aspect, as you mentioned in a previous comment, and I am working to get the information to answer the specifics on that. As I know I’ve seen the data previously.

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improv 6 years ago

I read what he said and your responses. I don't know why you think it's about the dust threshold. I have the same issue with EIP. My concern is that a 5 penny vote will be worth a tiny fraction of that on its own. If the dust threshold wipes away the remainder, well, that's a extra bummer, but the big problem is the initial reduction of value. I think he's been pretty clear that that's what he's saying, too.

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